#98 @kyanite111
Here it goes.
I really will try to keep this short, but it's impossible, because you are clearly being dishonest and using every possible attempt to deny something.
I think someone has to be really very lacking in common sense not to understand that lockdowns and shutting down bussinesses will lead to massive job losses, massive economic downturn, and this will lead to poverty and death in many cases.
You must understand that you are supporting totalitarian measures against virus with very low infection death rate, and that's of provably very little to almost no risk for younger people, with young we are talking about people even up to 50 years old.
--------------------------------
1. I quote you: "Lastly on your point about the UN, saying the lockdown would kill millions. Please cite your articles. "
You just keep ignoring, I mentioned/posted this more than once:
COVID-related hunger could kill more people than the virus
quote: "But as the health crisis becomes an economic one, funding shortfalls and supply chain issues could see millions more die of hunger."
unglobalcompact.org/take-action/20th-anniversary-campaign/covid-related%20hunger-could-kill-more-people-than-the-virus
www.un.org/press/en/2020/ga12294.doc.htm
quote: "including lockdowns when health authorities deemed them necessary – but these measures have impacted economic development and limited cross‑border movement of persons, goods and essential services"
Here is study about lockdowns, I am being forced to repeat myself because you ignore what I quoted:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7883103/
quote "Assessing mandatory stay‐at‐home and business closure effects on the spread of COVID‐19"
quote: "While small benefits cannot be excluded, we do not find significant benefits on case growth of more restrictive NPIs. Similar reductions in case growth may be achievable with less‐restrictive interventions"
So this study found that strongly restrictive measures (lockdowns) have no positive benefit. Clearly they have massive negative benefit, yet you keep supporting them (clearly).
--------------------------------
2. quote: "What the UN is concerned about in those reports, are medium to long-term effects in third world countries. It has nothing to do with the death rates we are talking about in the United States, or Italy for that matter."
So third world country deaths don't matter to you? Thanks for clearing that up.
This chimes well with the other "caring guy' who told that not liking mandatory rushed vaccines, mandatory masks and lockdowns is a good analogy to giving him my grandparents to chop their head off. And when I called him vile for that he just called me vile in return, and because I didn't want to continue wasting my time on that level of discussion they guy stopped posting, I am sure he would still be posting about how I am 'chopping his grandparents head off' for not liking this whole thing going on. Problem though is no country no matter how harshs lockdowns, masks mandates, now not even with vaccines are avoiding mass infections, and in most cases mass 'covid deaths'. Yet that of course doesn't matter.
My girlfriend lives in a third world country, and thanks to people like you I both cannot meet her and she is being forced to take a mandatory vaccine, that is of zero benefit to her, as her risk of dying due to covid is basically nil (She is 21 year old). Also I can't meet her due to these measures supported by people like you.
And I don't expect same kind of honesty from people like you, you will never reveal your true motives for supporting this. I reveal this as one strong motive for opposing it, though that's by for not the only issue I see with this. For example I deem it humiliating to wear a mask when I know there is no health benefit from that, also it causes health issue for me such as hypoxia. This is again thanks to people like you supporting this and thuse giving goverments false mandate in going on with this, if no people supporting these measures it would be harder to enforce them.
However saying that nobody will die due to these measures in 'first world countries' is just plain lying. Nobody is that stupid to think like that. Millions of people losing their income, and nobody dying right?
United States actually have a very high percent of population of who are in poverty, that's another false argument from you. The fact that there is lot of money in total in United States doesn't mean there aren't many poor people there.
www.hrw.org/news/2021/03/02/united-states-pandemic-impact-people-poverty
quote: "poverty has increased over the same period, with about eight million more people living in poverty"
So eight more million living in poverty in United States thanks to lockdowns seems like nothing to you?
---------------------------------
3. quote: " I'm not going to bother going into infection fatality rates"
So the single argument over which rests this whole 'pandemic' isn't important at all?
I quoted two studies showing how Infection Fatality Rate for covid-19 is comparable to flu, in fact quite low.
0.23% according to World Health Organization, that's one in 434, and we know that those one in 434 is usually same age as life expectancy in given country. Yet it's ok to kill millions of children and young people worldwide by starvation thanks to lockdowns.
These IFR values alone completely destroy the whole 'dangerous killer virus in the wild' narrative. Yet of course will be ignored by dishonest people like you.
Clearly given all that you are writing you aren't stupid, and if you aren't stupid then you ought to know better, yet you keep supporting this despite all the evidence, hence there is only one conclusion - you are not being honest, therefore I do not refrain from using the word 'dishonest' as that's just what it is.
----------------------------------
4. quote: "People in the United States, and other developed countries around the world, are not suffering from a shortage of food"
Ok so this is just another lie, and I am sure you know better - but hey it just sounded like good fake argument, so hell why not just use it. That's not even going into (again) with the whole "hey it's just the third world dying, so whatever" - you didn't said that but it was pretty much implied from what you said - you mentioned it as irrelevant factor that it's only in the third world.
"Brexit and COVID combine to leave supermarket shelves empty in the UK"
www.euronews.com/2021/07/21/brexit-and-covid-combine-to-leave-supermarket-shelves-empty-in-the-uk
It would take too much links, too much arguments to disprove this so I won't go any deeper into this, however I can reffer to 8 million extra people living in poverty in US thanks to lockdowns. I can reffer to empiric evidence from my country, which is considered 'first world', where there is massive increase in food prices (happening in US, UK and elsewhere as well), massive increase in poverty etc. Clearly people are suffering hunger, food shortages in the 'developed world' as well - pretty much everyone knows that - who's not been living under a rock for a year, you know that. Yet you just needed to tell it because you know it will require 20 links and several paragraphs to prove you wrong on this.
-----------------------------------
5. quote: " The simplest counter-argument to this, is that the doctors who are writing their cause of death, are explicitly listing covid-19, because it has specific effects on the body that can not be confused with bacterial pneumonia or stress-related ailments, such as dying from some kind of arrythmia of the heart, or old age. If doctors can regularly tell when you're dying of cancer, cholera, the ordinary flu, old age, or any other conditions or bodily injuries, and have done so reliably for the past few centuries, then why would covid-19 be any different? Why do you believe that they are somehow uniquely incapable of determining your cause of death when it comes to covid-19?"
Again you are absolutely wrong on pretty much every single point. It's really very exasparating to read so much false reasoning, false arguments, false attributions and having to disprove it all.
Fallacy number one. There is no easy way to tell viral pneumonia from bacterial pneumonia. I already told it, you just said I am wrong, so I can only reffer you to medical sites, and medical documents regarding this.
www.cebm.net/covid-19/differentiating-viral-from-bacterial-pneumonia/
quote: "Distinguishing viral pneumonia from bacterial pneumonia is difficult in the community. "
qoute: "Viruses are generally not as common a cause of CAP as some bacteria"
CAP = Community-acquired pneumonia
So The Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine admits that viral pneumonia is rare, it admits that there is no easy way to distinguish it from bacterial pneumonia, yet we are being told there is this covid pneumonia killing everybody all around, and there is no way on earth how millions of people keeping dirty unwashed contaminated piece of cloth on their mouth (because they are forced to as part of this circus) could have anything to do with this.
Now I reffer you to document published by World Health Organization.
www.who.int/classifications/icd/Guidelines_Cause_of_Death_COVID-19.pdf
Now World Health Organization is a public body with very high authority over medical matters around the world, I think you would find it hard to deny that.
They published a document where they outlined how covid deaths should be registered, and they specifically instructed that patient having cancer (no matter what stage) should not matter when person is registered as covid victim.
"A death due to COVID-19 may not be attributed to another disease (e.g. cancer) and should be
counted independently of preexisting conditions that are suspected of triggering a severe course of
COVID-19."
So they are basically saying that preexisting conditions should be ignored.
quote: "A death due to COVID-19 is defined for surveillance purposes as a death resulting from a clinically
compatible illness, in a probable or confirmed COVID-19 case, unless there is a clear alternative
cause of death that cannot be related to COVID disease (e.g. trauma). "
They are also advising on using 'probable covid-19 case' when registering death as due to covid.
Further they are pretty much advocating for ignoring any other possible explanations for death unless there is clear proof that the other reason was cause for the death (not covid). We know very well that covid victims are treated like someone harboring bubonic plague, they are being burried by people using full protective gear even in third world countries. We also know that in majority of cases there is no clear proof of why person died unless it is found in extensive post mortem section. That's common knowledge. Doctors make an educated guess based on history of illness etc. when determining cause of death. Now we have international health body advocating for ignoring history of illnesses. And you want to tell me that this is conspiracy, when it is in plain view in their own documents?
You can call it a conspiracy, whatever, it's just what it is and for whatever reason it is.
quote: "hundreds of thousands of doctors, nurses and surgeons working across hospitals in the United States are not collectively engaging in a conspiracy to fool the public, and especially the federal government, which is being forced as a result to spend trillions to keep the economy afloat and to protect people from being evicted because they can't meet their rent payments"
Again you are using 'straw man arguments' attempting to claim that I said something I never did. I never said that thousands of doctors are engaged in conspiracy. It is rather simply not needed at all.
As I already explained - World Health Organization has instructed doctors to ignore other illneses. Hospitals have even been paid bonuses for having covid victims. Hospital staff have had wages rised all over the world due to them being deemed 'front line workers' for worst kind of virus. There are no mass post-mortem sections being done on covid victims, so we don't really know why they died, and doctors who wrote 'covid-19' on their death certificate don't know either (in most cases), in some cases they unfortunately have financial incentive to write so as well, which probably helps ensure they do so.
Do you want to claim that it's a conspiracy that hospitals workers have seen increased wages all over the world 'due to covid'? Or in the very least the developed world such as UK, US etc.? It was in the news, it happened everywhere.
Do you want to claim that companies such as Pfizer have no vested interest in this all?
Again I quoted a Danish study which found massive corruption in 2009 in WHO regarding then 'swine flu pandemic'. Is that a conspiracy as well?
healthcare-in-europe.com/en/news/european-parliament-to-investigate-who-pandemic-scandal.html
quote: "The Council of Europe member states will launch an inquiry in January 2010 on the influence of the pharmaceutical companies on the global swine flu campaign, focusing especially on extent of the pharma's industry's influence on WHO."
So you want to claim that no corruption exists?
So World Health Organization that has world medical authority and massive influence on the health industry has distributed guidelines that tell doctors to ignore history of illnesses and evidence for other causes of death but covid, the same organization that was found to have massive corruption involving vaccine Pharma in 2009.
Here it goes.
I really will try to keep this short, but it's impossible, because you are clearly being dishonest and using every possible attempt to deny something.
I think someone has to be really very lacking in common sense not to understand that lockdowns and shutting down bussinesses will lead to massive job losses, massive economic downturn, and this will lead to poverty and death in many cases.
You must understand that you are supporting totalitarian measures against virus with very low infection death rate, and that's of provably very little to almost no risk for younger people, with young we are talking about people even up to 50 years old.
--------------------------------
1. I quote you: "Lastly on your point about the UN, saying the lockdown would kill millions. Please cite your articles. "
You just keep ignoring, I mentioned/posted this more than once:
COVID-related hunger could kill more people than the virus
quote: "But as the health crisis becomes an economic one, funding shortfalls and supply chain issues could see millions more die of hunger."
unglobalcompact.org/take-action/20th-anniversary-campaign/covid-related%20hunger-could-kill-more-people-than-the-virus
www.un.org/press/en/2020/ga12294.doc.htm
quote: "including lockdowns when health authorities deemed them necessary – but these measures have impacted economic development and limited cross‑border movement of persons, goods and essential services"
Here is study about lockdowns, I am being forced to repeat myself because you ignore what I quoted:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7883103/
quote "Assessing mandatory stay‐at‐home and business closure effects on the spread of COVID‐19"
quote: "While small benefits cannot be excluded, we do not find significant benefits on case growth of more restrictive NPIs. Similar reductions in case growth may be achievable with less‐restrictive interventions"
So this study found that strongly restrictive measures (lockdowns) have no positive benefit. Clearly they have massive negative benefit, yet you keep supporting them (clearly).
--------------------------------
2. quote: "What the UN is concerned about in those reports, are medium to long-term effects in third world countries. It has nothing to do with the death rates we are talking about in the United States, or Italy for that matter."
So third world country deaths don't matter to you? Thanks for clearing that up.
This chimes well with the other "caring guy' who told that not liking mandatory rushed vaccines, mandatory masks and lockdowns is a good analogy to giving him my grandparents to chop their head off. And when I called him vile for that he just called me vile in return, and because I didn't want to continue wasting my time on that level of discussion they guy stopped posting, I am sure he would still be posting about how I am 'chopping his grandparents head off' for not liking this whole thing going on. Problem though is no country no matter how harshs lockdowns, masks mandates, now not even with vaccines are avoiding mass infections, and in most cases mass 'covid deaths'. Yet that of course doesn't matter.
My girlfriend lives in a third world country, and thanks to people like you I both cannot meet her and she is being forced to take a mandatory vaccine, that is of zero benefit to her, as her risk of dying due to covid is basically nil (She is 21 year old). Also I can't meet her due to these measures supported by people like you.
And I don't expect same kind of honesty from people like you, you will never reveal your true motives for supporting this. I reveal this as one strong motive for opposing it, though that's by for not the only issue I see with this. For example I deem it humiliating to wear a mask when I know there is no health benefit from that, also it causes health issue for me such as hypoxia. This is again thanks to people like you supporting this and thuse giving goverments false mandate in going on with this, if no people supporting these measures it would be harder to enforce them.
However saying that nobody will die due to these measures in 'first world countries' is just plain lying. Nobody is that stupid to think like that. Millions of people losing their income, and nobody dying right?
United States actually have a very high percent of population of who are in poverty, that's another false argument from you. The fact that there is lot of money in total in United States doesn't mean there aren't many poor people there.
www.hrw.org/news/2021/03/02/united-states-pandemic-impact-people-poverty
quote: "poverty has increased over the same period, with about eight million more people living in poverty"
So eight more million living in poverty in United States thanks to lockdowns seems like nothing to you?
---------------------------------
3. quote: " I'm not going to bother going into infection fatality rates"
So the single argument over which rests this whole 'pandemic' isn't important at all?
I quoted two studies showing how Infection Fatality Rate for covid-19 is comparable to flu, in fact quite low.
0.23% according to World Health Organization, that's one in 434, and we know that those one in 434 is usually same age as life expectancy in given country. Yet it's ok to kill millions of children and young people worldwide by starvation thanks to lockdowns.
These IFR values alone completely destroy the whole 'dangerous killer virus in the wild' narrative. Yet of course will be ignored by dishonest people like you.
Clearly given all that you are writing you aren't stupid, and if you aren't stupid then you ought to know better, yet you keep supporting this despite all the evidence, hence there is only one conclusion - you are not being honest, therefore I do not refrain from using the word 'dishonest' as that's just what it is.
----------------------------------
4. quote: "People in the United States, and other developed countries around the world, are not suffering from a shortage of food"
Ok so this is just another lie, and I am sure you know better - but hey it just sounded like good fake argument, so hell why not just use it. That's not even going into (again) with the whole "hey it's just the third world dying, so whatever" - you didn't said that but it was pretty much implied from what you said - you mentioned it as irrelevant factor that it's only in the third world.
"Brexit and COVID combine to leave supermarket shelves empty in the UK"
www.euronews.com/2021/07/21/brexit-and-covid-combine-to-leave-supermarket-shelves-empty-in-the-uk
It would take too much links, too much arguments to disprove this so I won't go any deeper into this, however I can reffer to 8 million extra people living in poverty in US thanks to lockdowns. I can reffer to empiric evidence from my country, which is considered 'first world', where there is massive increase in food prices (happening in US, UK and elsewhere as well), massive increase in poverty etc. Clearly people are suffering hunger, food shortages in the 'developed world' as well - pretty much everyone knows that - who's not been living under a rock for a year, you know that. Yet you just needed to tell it because you know it will require 20 links and several paragraphs to prove you wrong on this.
-----------------------------------
5. quote: " The simplest counter-argument to this, is that the doctors who are writing their cause of death, are explicitly listing covid-19, because it has specific effects on the body that can not be confused with bacterial pneumonia or stress-related ailments, such as dying from some kind of arrythmia of the heart, or old age. If doctors can regularly tell when you're dying of cancer, cholera, the ordinary flu, old age, or any other conditions or bodily injuries, and have done so reliably for the past few centuries, then why would covid-19 be any different? Why do you believe that they are somehow uniquely incapable of determining your cause of death when it comes to covid-19?"
Again you are absolutely wrong on pretty much every single point. It's really very exasparating to read so much false reasoning, false arguments, false attributions and having to disprove it all.
Fallacy number one. There is no easy way to tell viral pneumonia from bacterial pneumonia. I already told it, you just said I am wrong, so I can only reffer you to medical sites, and medical documents regarding this.
www.cebm.net/covid-19/differentiating-viral-from-bacterial-pneumonia/
quote: "Distinguishing viral pneumonia from bacterial pneumonia is difficult in the community. "
qoute: "Viruses are generally not as common a cause of CAP as some bacteria"
CAP = Community-acquired pneumonia
So The Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine admits that viral pneumonia is rare, it admits that there is no easy way to distinguish it from bacterial pneumonia, yet we are being told there is this covid pneumonia killing everybody all around, and there is no way on earth how millions of people keeping dirty unwashed contaminated piece of cloth on their mouth (because they are forced to as part of this circus) could have anything to do with this.
Now I reffer you to document published by World Health Organization.
www.who.int/classifications/icd/Guidelines_Cause_of_Death_COVID-19.pdf
Now World Health Organization is a public body with very high authority over medical matters around the world, I think you would find it hard to deny that.
They published a document where they outlined how covid deaths should be registered, and they specifically instructed that patient having cancer (no matter what stage) should not matter when person is registered as covid victim.
"A death due to COVID-19 may not be attributed to another disease (e.g. cancer) and should be
counted independently of preexisting conditions that are suspected of triggering a severe course of
COVID-19."
So they are basically saying that preexisting conditions should be ignored.
quote: "A death due to COVID-19 is defined for surveillance purposes as a death resulting from a clinically
compatible illness, in a probable or confirmed COVID-19 case, unless there is a clear alternative
cause of death that cannot be related to COVID disease (e.g. trauma). "
They are also advising on using 'probable covid-19 case' when registering death as due to covid.
Further they are pretty much advocating for ignoring any other possible explanations for death unless there is clear proof that the other reason was cause for the death (not covid). We know very well that covid victims are treated like someone harboring bubonic plague, they are being burried by people using full protective gear even in third world countries. We also know that in majority of cases there is no clear proof of why person died unless it is found in extensive post mortem section. That's common knowledge. Doctors make an educated guess based on history of illness etc. when determining cause of death. Now we have international health body advocating for ignoring history of illnesses. And you want to tell me that this is conspiracy, when it is in plain view in their own documents?
You can call it a conspiracy, whatever, it's just what it is and for whatever reason it is.
quote: "hundreds of thousands of doctors, nurses and surgeons working across hospitals in the United States are not collectively engaging in a conspiracy to fool the public, and especially the federal government, which is being forced as a result to spend trillions to keep the economy afloat and to protect people from being evicted because they can't meet their rent payments"
Again you are using 'straw man arguments' attempting to claim that I said something I never did. I never said that thousands of doctors are engaged in conspiracy. It is rather simply not needed at all.
As I already explained - World Health Organization has instructed doctors to ignore other illneses. Hospitals have even been paid bonuses for having covid victims. Hospital staff have had wages rised all over the world due to them being deemed 'front line workers' for worst kind of virus. There are no mass post-mortem sections being done on covid victims, so we don't really know why they died, and doctors who wrote 'covid-19' on their death certificate don't know either (in most cases), in some cases they unfortunately have financial incentive to write so as well, which probably helps ensure they do so.
Do you want to claim that it's a conspiracy that hospitals workers have seen increased wages all over the world 'due to covid'? Or in the very least the developed world such as UK, US etc.? It was in the news, it happened everywhere.
Do you want to claim that companies such as Pfizer have no vested interest in this all?
Again I quoted a Danish study which found massive corruption in 2009 in WHO regarding then 'swine flu pandemic'. Is that a conspiracy as well?
healthcare-in-europe.com/en/news/european-parliament-to-investigate-who-pandemic-scandal.html
quote: "The Council of Europe member states will launch an inquiry in January 2010 on the influence of the pharmaceutical companies on the global swine flu campaign, focusing especially on extent of the pharma's industry's influence on WHO."
So you want to claim that no corruption exists?
So World Health Organization that has world medical authority and massive influence on the health industry has distributed guidelines that tell doctors to ignore history of illnesses and evidence for other causes of death but covid, the same organization that was found to have massive corruption involving vaccine Pharma in 2009.