I've seen many streams (most?) where the whateverM beats up on weaker players.
@GanonZD said in #5:
> Dear @TheWellHeeledKing: I was your opponent.
>
> There was a a very simple solution to this problem: You could have offered draw, as I suggested to you in the comment section on Twitch.
I did NOT see (if) you suggested a draw in my twitch channel chat. You and I were communicating in the game chat and you neither requested a draw there nor did you actually offer a draw using the usual command button in lichess! Had I known about your suggestion, I would of course have accepted. If it happens to you again I suggest you communicate your request by requesting a draw in the game chat AND click "Offer Draw". Then your opponent may be aware of and accept your request.
> (I didn’t offer draw myself, as it was clear that you wouldn’t have accepted it.)
That was certainly NOT clear. You assumed wrongly and, as always to "a ss u me" makes an ass out of U and ME!
> I didn’t ask you to stop the stream only after I made a blunder. I did it much earlier, at the very beginning of the game, the moment I realized that you were streaming.
When I play chess, I concentrate on a) on the game and b) on listening and replying to my regular viewers chat messages which are read out by text-to-speech from my channel chat. I do NOT normally pay any attention to the game chat (which is why, if you want a draw you should not only tell your opponent in the game chat but also hit the "Offer Draw" command button). I only saw your in-game chat message after a number of moves had been played. I don't know when you asked, "Please stop streaming" in the game chat but I only saw it a while into the game and I will, of course, politely reject a request to stop streaming! A request to shut down my stream while viewers were in was not going to happen and sounded like you wanted to continue the game but only if I stop the stream! That's a very different request to offering a draw and turned nasty when you threatened to run down the clock if I don't stop streaming. Threatening somebody that you will do sth if they don't acceed to a request you make is the definition of blackmail! You were effectively trying to blackmail me to stop streaming! Again, with no mention in the game chat of the draw idea and no draw offer!!! There is no way I will ever let myself be pressured in that way!
> You could have agreed to a draw, which would have been more or less equivalent to aborting the game (except that it would have happened a few moves into the opening, before the game had properly started). That would have been a very gentlemanish attitude to have. I
No I could NOT have agreed to a draw if I do not know you suggest a draw! Also a draw is in no way similar or equivalent to aborting a game! Aborting is only allowed at the very beginning, is an individual decision not requiring agreement and is frowned upon anyway. In fact, you will get a warning in lichess if you abort too frequently. It's anoying for your opponents.
Please remember - you are NOT a regular viewer of my channel and so your chat messages in my stream were NOT read out by TTS! I neither saw no heared them when you wrote them and only became aware much later that you were also communicating in the stream after my regulars told me. By that time you had already started blackmailing me by running down the clock, wasting my time and that of my viewers. Who wasn't being gentlemanly?!?!? Right. Check the mirror.
> If people don’t want to be streamed, don’t force them. Agree to abort the game, and play a game against someone else instead. No harm done, nobody got hurt or offended. Is that really so much to ask for?
Nobody forces anybody to have their game streamed and if you want to abort a game (only possible I believe until the first moves have been completed) at the beginning you can do so WITHOUT your opponents agreement! That happens all the time. From the very beginning, the fact that I was streaming was shown next to the game. It is YOUR responsibility to watch out and abort if you don't agree to the game being streamed.
>
> You argued that it said clearly in the upper left corner that you were streaming, and that by not aborting the game, I implicitly agreed to be streamed. But that notice in the upper left corner is very small and easy to miss, and having never played against a streamer before, I did not know where to look for this notice, so I didn’t seen it. If I had seen it, I would have aborted the game immediately, before it ever started. Are we expected to check out every little detail in the browser window before commencing a game, or otherwise, sorry, too bad, you accidentally agreed to be live-streamed to the world?
It's not little but rather quite obvious. And yes, if you use a system and take part in a community it is up to YOU to acquaint yourself with it and know how it works. Ignorance on your part about the fact that games can and often are streamed and that you can prevent it by watching out and aborting at the beginning is your problem and not mine! Sorry.
>
> If you go to the local shopping mall, you agree that everyone in the mall can see you physically, and that the security personnel can see you from their security cameras and will probably store the footage for some time. But imagine that the shopping mall adds a small, easy-to-miss sign on their front door saying that by walking in, you implicitly agree to the security camera footage being live-streamed on Twitch or YouTube. If you miss that, is that then equivalent to not having read the small text on the bottom of the contract before signing, and sorry, too bad, but you should have read the text on the front door more carefully before walking in?
>
The comparison is totally ridiculous! It is not certainly NOT usual for any shopping centre, or any other place open to the public, to stream security footage showing video images of people, their faces, who they are with, what they are doing etc, going about their business live on Twitch or anywhere else! Doing so would probably be illegal, almost certainly against the Terms and Conditions of twitch and a mall putting a small notice somewhere stating that entry gives implicit agreement would IMHO (and I'm not a lawyer) be invalid if challenged in court.
Compare with somebody streaming a game being played on lichess: If your opponent is streaming a lichess game nobody knows anything about you except for your username on lichess and anything you put in your lichess profile, should they happen to look there. Nobody can see you, who you are with, where you are or anything that you are doing! That is completely different to a mall streaming security video footage! ️
> I agree that my behaviour about letting the clock run down was probably an overreaction. I simply could not find any other ways to protest against your attitude. I hoped that it would get you to agree to abort the game (i.e. offer draw). You could have simply agreed to this, but you didn’t.
Your behaviour was, indeed, unacceptable and I subsequently blocked you and reported you to lichess.
And again for your understanding : Aborting a game is NOT the same thing as offering a draw (as already explained), does not need your opponent's agreement and anyway you did NOT offer a draw in lichess, which is where you should have done so!!!
I hope you understand now. You have managed to waste a great deal of my time today and, now that I have blocked you, I won't have to ever waste time on this again and you will never play me so you don't need to worry about me streaming any of your games! But watch out! There are hundreds of streamers out there! If you play chess online there is a good chance that you will, from time-to-time land in games that are being streamed. Check every game you start BEFORE MOVE ONE and abort if you see your opponent is streaming. Problem solved.
> Dear @TheWellHeeledKing: I was your opponent.
>
> There was a a very simple solution to this problem: You could have offered draw, as I suggested to you in the comment section on Twitch.
I did NOT see (if) you suggested a draw in my twitch channel chat. You and I were communicating in the game chat and you neither requested a draw there nor did you actually offer a draw using the usual command button in lichess! Had I known about your suggestion, I would of course have accepted. If it happens to you again I suggest you communicate your request by requesting a draw in the game chat AND click "Offer Draw". Then your opponent may be aware of and accept your request.
> (I didn’t offer draw myself, as it was clear that you wouldn’t have accepted it.)
That was certainly NOT clear. You assumed wrongly and, as always to "a ss u me" makes an ass out of U and ME!
> I didn’t ask you to stop the stream only after I made a blunder. I did it much earlier, at the very beginning of the game, the moment I realized that you were streaming.
When I play chess, I concentrate on a) on the game and b) on listening and replying to my regular viewers chat messages which are read out by text-to-speech from my channel chat. I do NOT normally pay any attention to the game chat (which is why, if you want a draw you should not only tell your opponent in the game chat but also hit the "Offer Draw" command button). I only saw your in-game chat message after a number of moves had been played. I don't know when you asked, "Please stop streaming" in the game chat but I only saw it a while into the game and I will, of course, politely reject a request to stop streaming! A request to shut down my stream while viewers were in was not going to happen and sounded like you wanted to continue the game but only if I stop the stream! That's a very different request to offering a draw and turned nasty when you threatened to run down the clock if I don't stop streaming. Threatening somebody that you will do sth if they don't acceed to a request you make is the definition of blackmail! You were effectively trying to blackmail me to stop streaming! Again, with no mention in the game chat of the draw idea and no draw offer!!! There is no way I will ever let myself be pressured in that way!
> You could have agreed to a draw, which would have been more or less equivalent to aborting the game (except that it would have happened a few moves into the opening, before the game had properly started). That would have been a very gentlemanish attitude to have. I
No I could NOT have agreed to a draw if I do not know you suggest a draw! Also a draw is in no way similar or equivalent to aborting a game! Aborting is only allowed at the very beginning, is an individual decision not requiring agreement and is frowned upon anyway. In fact, you will get a warning in lichess if you abort too frequently. It's anoying for your opponents.
Please remember - you are NOT a regular viewer of my channel and so your chat messages in my stream were NOT read out by TTS! I neither saw no heared them when you wrote them and only became aware much later that you were also communicating in the stream after my regulars told me. By that time you had already started blackmailing me by running down the clock, wasting my time and that of my viewers. Who wasn't being gentlemanly?!?!? Right. Check the mirror.
> If people don’t want to be streamed, don’t force them. Agree to abort the game, and play a game against someone else instead. No harm done, nobody got hurt or offended. Is that really so much to ask for?
Nobody forces anybody to have their game streamed and if you want to abort a game (only possible I believe until the first moves have been completed) at the beginning you can do so WITHOUT your opponents agreement! That happens all the time. From the very beginning, the fact that I was streaming was shown next to the game. It is YOUR responsibility to watch out and abort if you don't agree to the game being streamed.
>
> You argued that it said clearly in the upper left corner that you were streaming, and that by not aborting the game, I implicitly agreed to be streamed. But that notice in the upper left corner is very small and easy to miss, and having never played against a streamer before, I did not know where to look for this notice, so I didn’t seen it. If I had seen it, I would have aborted the game immediately, before it ever started. Are we expected to check out every little detail in the browser window before commencing a game, or otherwise, sorry, too bad, you accidentally agreed to be live-streamed to the world?
It's not little but rather quite obvious. And yes, if you use a system and take part in a community it is up to YOU to acquaint yourself with it and know how it works. Ignorance on your part about the fact that games can and often are streamed and that you can prevent it by watching out and aborting at the beginning is your problem and not mine! Sorry.
>
> If you go to the local shopping mall, you agree that everyone in the mall can see you physically, and that the security personnel can see you from their security cameras and will probably store the footage for some time. But imagine that the shopping mall adds a small, easy-to-miss sign on their front door saying that by walking in, you implicitly agree to the security camera footage being live-streamed on Twitch or YouTube. If you miss that, is that then equivalent to not having read the small text on the bottom of the contract before signing, and sorry, too bad, but you should have read the text on the front door more carefully before walking in?
>
The comparison is totally ridiculous! It is not certainly NOT usual for any shopping centre, or any other place open to the public, to stream security footage showing video images of people, their faces, who they are with, what they are doing etc, going about their business live on Twitch or anywhere else! Doing so would probably be illegal, almost certainly against the Terms and Conditions of twitch and a mall putting a small notice somewhere stating that entry gives implicit agreement would IMHO (and I'm not a lawyer) be invalid if challenged in court.
Compare with somebody streaming a game being played on lichess: If your opponent is streaming a lichess game nobody knows anything about you except for your username on lichess and anything you put in your lichess profile, should they happen to look there. Nobody can see you, who you are with, where you are or anything that you are doing! That is completely different to a mall streaming security video footage! ️
> I agree that my behaviour about letting the clock run down was probably an overreaction. I simply could not find any other ways to protest against your attitude. I hoped that it would get you to agree to abort the game (i.e. offer draw). You could have simply agreed to this, but you didn’t.
Your behaviour was, indeed, unacceptable and I subsequently blocked you and reported you to lichess.
And again for your understanding : Aborting a game is NOT the same thing as offering a draw (as already explained), does not need your opponent's agreement and anyway you did NOT offer a draw in lichess, which is where you should have done so!!!
I hope you understand now. You have managed to waste a great deal of my time today and, now that I have blocked you, I won't have to ever waste time on this again and you will never play me so you don't need to worry about me streaming any of your games! But watch out! There are hundreds of streamers out there! If you play chess online there is a good chance that you will, from time-to-time land in games that are being streamed. Check every game you start BEFORE MOVE ONE and abort if you see your opponent is streaming. Problem solved.
@drSabrotna said in #9:
> I do think it would be common courtesy to not stream opponents who didn't previously agree to it.
How is a streamer supposed to know whether an opponent is one of the rare ones who does not want to be streamed? If they do not want it they can abort the game or, if they notice too late, request a draw in lichess. My opponent did neither. What they cannot do is to request that the streamer stop streaming!
>
> I equate it to doing a live video of people at a location and you put them on YouTube without consent. Privacy and courtesy matters. Streamers are only thinking of themselves. They can easily find 100 volunteers.
Not the same at all as I explained to my opponent elsewhere in this thread. Please check that out.
> I do think it would be common courtesy to not stream opponents who didn't previously agree to it.
How is a streamer supposed to know whether an opponent is one of the rare ones who does not want to be streamed? If they do not want it they can abort the game or, if they notice too late, request a draw in lichess. My opponent did neither. What they cannot do is to request that the streamer stop streaming!
>
> I equate it to doing a live video of people at a location and you put them on YouTube without consent. Privacy and courtesy matters. Streamers are only thinking of themselves. They can easily find 100 volunteers.
Not the same at all as I explained to my opponent elsewhere in this thread. Please check that out.
@glbert said in #2:
> games are public. your opponent can ask you politely to not stream it, but that is basically it.
Correct, all games on lichess are public AFAIK. Anyone can look up any game that is taking or has taken place on lichess at any time, and go through it and stream it.
To be precise, a player can ask politely not to stream /a game/ while it's being played but it is not reasonable to ask the streamer to /stop the stream/ as my opponent did. If they do not want the game to be streamed they can abort or, if they missed that opportunity at the start of the game, request a draw in lichess. My opponent did neither and when I politely declined their request to stop the stream threatened to, and then actually did, run down the clock for about 10 minutes of a 15 minute game.
> games are public. your opponent can ask you politely to not stream it, but that is basically it.
Correct, all games on lichess are public AFAIK. Anyone can look up any game that is taking or has taken place on lichess at any time, and go through it and stream it.
To be precise, a player can ask politely not to stream /a game/ while it's being played but it is not reasonable to ask the streamer to /stop the stream/ as my opponent did. If they do not want the game to be streamed they can abort or, if they missed that opportunity at the start of the game, request a draw in lichess. My opponent did neither and when I politely declined their request to stop the stream threatened to, and then actually did, run down the clock for about 10 minutes of a 15 minute game.
@mcgoves said in #11:
> I've seen many streams (most?) where the whateverM beats up on weaker players.
tbh I think there are probably many more small amateur channels (like mine) streaming than there are titled players! I know loads and interact with them regularly. I'm not interested in the big streams.
> I've seen many streams (most?) where the whateverM beats up on weaker players.
tbh I think there are probably many more small amateur channels (like mine) streaming than there are titled players! I know loads and interact with them regularly. I'm not interested in the big streams.
@glbert said in #4:
> well, i guess if you asked your opponent to not have the private game chat on stream, that would be fair.
It would be and I'm sure any streamer, myself included, would agree. I have never had that request. Has anyone else?
> well, i guess if you asked your opponent to not have the private game chat on stream, that would be fair.
It would be and I'm sure any streamer, myself included, would agree. I have never had that request. Has anyone else?
@Solal35 said in #3:
> The private game chat is not public though.
Streamers may be showing their whole browser content or some subset of it and that may include the in-game chat. Of course, if the opponent requests that the chat not be shown on stream I would honour that request, as I am sure would any streamer,
Is the in-game chat private anyway? Can observers not also chat in the in-game chat or is that just the case in arenas etc? IDK
> The private game chat is not public though.
Streamers may be showing their whole browser content or some subset of it and that may include the in-game chat. Of course, if the opponent requests that the chat not be shown on stream I would honour that request, as I am sure would any streamer,
Is the in-game chat private anyway? Can observers not also chat in the in-game chat or is that just the case in arenas etc? IDK
Someone I know consulted a lawyer on a similar matter, but on a game other than chess. His explanation was that you're streaming your screen, and by adding your commentary or video of yourself (or whatever you add), you are transforming it and now you can use it. The other dude doesn't have a right to not be streamed and doesn't have to consent either. It works about the same in real life; go online and look for streams of shopping malls and streets and you can find they exist in many countries, I'm watching some people shop right now and they probably don't even know.
Find a way to turn this into an advantage, man. Make some videos about the situation, use the guy for a section of your channel where you review his worst game of each week, make a video about his progress once a month, have something prepared in case it happens again (like some way to interact with your audience while the clock runs down), turn it into some recurring memes. Try to interview the dude to see if you can get a video out of it, maybe a debate on privacy or something; if he misbehaves then use the drama for content too. You have a lot to work with, he even posted in the thread, so that's a video waiting to be recorded; people love this kind of drama and it becomes part of the lore of the streamer.
Find a way to turn this into an advantage, man. Make some videos about the situation, use the guy for a section of your channel where you review his worst game of each week, make a video about his progress once a month, have something prepared in case it happens again (like some way to interact with your audience while the clock runs down), turn it into some recurring memes. Try to interview the dude to see if you can get a video out of it, maybe a debate on privacy or something; if he misbehaves then use the drama for content too. You have a lot to work with, he even posted in the thread, so that's a video waiting to be recorded; people love this kind of drama and it becomes part of the lore of the streamer.
@JuicyChickenNO1 said in #18:
> Someone I know consulted a lawyer on a similar matter, but on a game other than chess. His explanation was that you're streaming your screen, and by adding your commentary or video of yourself (or whatever you add), you are transforming it and now you can use it. The other dude doesn't have a right to not be streamed and doesn't have to consent either. It works about the same in real life; go online and look for streams of shopping malls and streets and you can find they exist in many countries, I'm watching some people shop right now and they probably don't even know.
>
> Find a way to turn this into an advantage, man. Make some videos about the situation, use the guy for a section of your channel where you review his worst game of each week, make a video about his progress once a month, have something prepared in case it happens again (like some way to interact with your audience while the clock runs down), turn it into some recurring memes. Try to interview the dude to see if you can get a video out of it, maybe a debate on privacy or something; if he misbehaves then use the drama for content too. You have a lot to work with, he even posted in the thread, so that's a video waiting to be recorded; people love this kind of drama and it becomes part of the lore of the streamer.
This is such an overreaction. Just because they timed out a single game does not allow you to shame them like this.
> Someone I know consulted a lawyer on a similar matter, but on a game other than chess. His explanation was that you're streaming your screen, and by adding your commentary or video of yourself (or whatever you add), you are transforming it and now you can use it. The other dude doesn't have a right to not be streamed and doesn't have to consent either. It works about the same in real life; go online and look for streams of shopping malls and streets and you can find they exist in many countries, I'm watching some people shop right now and they probably don't even know.
>
> Find a way to turn this into an advantage, man. Make some videos about the situation, use the guy for a section of your channel where you review his worst game of each week, make a video about his progress once a month, have something prepared in case it happens again (like some way to interact with your audience while the clock runs down), turn it into some recurring memes. Try to interview the dude to see if you can get a video out of it, maybe a debate on privacy or something; if he misbehaves then use the drama for content too. You have a lot to work with, he even posted in the thread, so that's a video waiting to be recorded; people love this kind of drama and it becomes part of the lore of the streamer.
This is such an overreaction. Just because they timed out a single game does not allow you to shame them like this.
@Autofill said in #19:
> This is such an overreaction. Just because they timed out a single game does not allow you to shame them like this.
It's not because of timing out; you wouldn't do this just because a guy timed out. It's because the situation is interesting and it's gonna bring clicks and grow your channel. He's gotta turn it into an advantage and make content with it, because somebody else is gonna do it anyway if he doesn't; call dibs on it while it's hot.
> This is such an overreaction. Just because they timed out a single game does not allow you to shame them like this.
It's not because of timing out; you wouldn't do this just because a guy timed out. It's because the situation is interesting and it's gonna bring clicks and grow your channel. He's gotta turn it into an advantage and make content with it, because somebody else is gonna do it anyway if he doesn't; call dibs on it while it's hot.
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